Jay Mariotti Thinks Canceled ‘Around the Horn’ Went ‘Woke’

Despite being off the show for almost 15 years, few panelists are linked more inextricably to ESPN’s Around the Horn than Jay Mariotti.

During the sports debate show’s formative years from 2002 to 2010, the controversial newspaper columnist was a polarizing presence on TV, appearing nearly every day on the weekday afternoon program. A 2010 arrest led to Mariotti pleading no contest to a single count of misdemeanor domestic violence.

With ATH going away after 23 years, we asked Mariotti what went wrong with an iconic show that seemed like it could run forever. 

Mariotti believes ATH became too “woke” politically, particularly in criticism of President Donald Trump during his first term in the White House. He also thinks the number of cast members got out of hand, splintering the bond that viewers had with regional newspaper columnists like himself, Woody Paige, Kevin Blackistone, Tim Cowlishaw, J.A. Adande, Jackie MacMullan, and Bob Ryan.

ESPN declined to comment on Mariotti’s statements. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Front Office Sports: What changed at ATH? 

Jay Mariotti: John Skipper ran ESPN at the time. I think what John Skipper wanted from some of the shows was he started to install people on the shows who became anti-Trump—can I put it that way? 

Our show was about sports. Honestly, we did delve into politics. But you were never going to get me on ripping the president, or praising the president. We’re not going that far. I started to watch the show and I would see people down and out anti-Trump. I’m not going to tell you whether I’m a Trump guy or not. That’s really irrelevant. I did not want to watch a sports show and see it delve into that. And I think it started at the top from management, at the time, that they wanted this to be the tone of the show. Jemele Hill had her say. Michael Smith had his say. I was like, “Can we get back to this?” 

I think they lost some audience. That’s rather obvious. Nobody’s turning on ESPN to watch this. They want to see what’s going on in the NBA and the NFL and so on. If there are political issues, fine. But please don’t turn it into this. I think they lost audience. Those people inevitably left the show. Skipper inevitably left the network. … As I said, PTI has certain numbers. Around the Horn does not have anywhere near those numbers. They should get rid of the show—because there’s nothing left.

FOS: You say the show became too woke?

JM: Too woke is correct. We went through a difficult time in this country. I did, too, and you did, too. But if there’s one reason why we’re turning on ESPN from 2010 to 2020, in that general range, we’re still looking at sports. Stephen A. [Smith] delves into all sorts of things. He’s even talking about running for president. Well, good for him. The point being, that when you’re turning it on, and he’s on with his partner, they’re going to delve into LeBron [James] playing with Luka [Dončić], they’re going to get into [Jimmy] Butler playing with [Steph] Curry, they’re going to talk about Oklahoma City, they’re going to get into that. … Back then I honest to god don’t know what they were getting into half the time. 

That’s where I’m going to call out a guy I had a lot of respect for: [ATH and PTI producer] Erik Rydholm. He let it slip into that? He’s running the show. Is he taking orders from Bristol? Run the show. You’re great at what you do. You built Around the Horn into what it was, eight years, then you veer off and go into this? I haven’t spoken to Erik in years. I don’t know what he was thinking. If you get a hold of him, I would love to read about what he was thinking about in delving into this new era of Around the Horn. 

FOS: Does ATH have too many panelists?

JM: I leave the show in 2010. And honestly, I was flabbergasted by the direction they went into. We had 6 to 8 people on the show. Pretty regular. We went at it hard—because we knew each other so well. There was this familiar bond between all of us. So whether it was me and Woody, me and Cowlishaw, me and Kevin Blackistone, J.A. Adande, Bill Plaschke, Bob Ryan. But that was it. Then I’m watching the show and it’s 10 people, 20 people, 25 people. I didn’t even know who they were. I think what they did was lose the continuity of whatever we had going. 

Honestly, over the last several years, I haven’t even watched it. I don’t know who’s going to be on the show, I don’t know who’s on next, I don’t know who they’re introducing to the audience. That’s not how you build a program. I think I can speak to this because I was on for eight years and they put me on just about every day. You build it with familiar people. I’ve heard a lot of people over the years say, “I can’t watch it anymore because I don’t know who’s on next, I don’t know what they cover.” … Whereas when we were on, everybody knew Woody was from Denver, I was from Chicago, Plaschke was from L.A., Jackie was from Boston. Everybody had an idea of where we were from and what we covered. 

The show fell apart. I don’t think it had to fall apart. If I had to leave, I had to leave, but they should have kept it going with the minimum number of people and created stars. I think what they did, inevitably, they made sure they paid [Mike] Wilbon and [Tony] Kornheiser [of Pardon the Interruption] what they’re worth, and anybody who appeared on Around the Horn didn’t get much money at all. I think that was the setup from on high. You can blame ESPN for that. Now they’re getting rid of the show as PTI carries them on.

FOS: Did the show lose a sense of verbal combat? Become too chummy? 

JM: No, I don’t believe there was enough jousting. Keep in mind Woody and I became friends after that. We didn’t like each other—I didn’t—for half an hour. When I went on that show, we were ready to go. I knew the news and so on. If somebody didn’t agree, I would go off, they’d go off. I think that’s what built the audience. People would come up to me in an airport and say, “Do you and Woody really hate each other?” I’d say, “No, but maybe during that 22 minutes, we do.” That’s all. 

It was fun. It was great entertaining fun. And it veered off into politics and whatever the hell it became. If I’m getting riled up about today in 2025, it’s because they didn’t have to go in that direction. If they’d stuck to what they did, they didn’t. Here we are today. They could have kept going on for another 10 years. It wouldn’t shock me if PTI continues for five years. Those two guys are on a roll, they’re both sharp, I watch them most days. They’re on topics. Wilbon will still rip into somebody. Kornheiser will. That’s the show. ATH somehow went the other way.

FOS: Who’s your favorite host? 

JM: Max Kellerman brought it out in us. If you ever sat in our morning meetings, Max would be firing away. During these meetings, he would fire us up. … Tony’s a delightful guy. A lot of people think he’s great on the air. I guess it comes down to what you’re looking for in a host. For what we were trying to do on Around the Horn, I think it was Max. Whatever happened, they allowed Tony to become the program. That’s nice. But they lost their juice. 

Your host has to bring it out in the panelists. And Max did. Then he went to Fox. I don’t know where he is today. But Tony, god love him, I’m sure he’ll be fine somewhere. He always talked about becoming a talk-show host. Maybe he will, maybe he’ll make millions of dollars, he should. But what we were trying to do with Around the Horn, I thought Max Kellerman was better for us than [Tony] Reali.

FOS: What should replace ATH?

JM: PTI still counts. People watch it. I would expand PTI. I would turn it into an hour show. I would have them [Wilbon and Kornheiser] be the main parts of it. This is what Rydholm does the best: Expand. Think about an hour. How do you play them all out? Don’t run them out an hour a day, you’ll kill them. I think PTI should become an hour-long show. It would help SportsCenter after it. I don’t want it to become another half-hour of NBA Today. Or the NFL. We see enough of that. Please don’t do that again. They’re in bed with the leagues, I get that. They want to do what the leagues want them to do. Sure, the league would love to have another half-hour NFL show. No. Turn into Tony, Mike and build it.

JM: You’re asking me like I’m Johnny Carson or somebody. As I said, I haven’t spoken to Erik or [coordinating producer] Aaron Solomon since I left the show. I think they decided: That’s past tense. We’re done with him. No, I would think over the years, somebody would pipe in a call and say “Hi.” I understand they work for a difficult place. I cannot imagine working at ESPN as long as Rydholm has. He’s a talented guy, he should probably go elsewhere, maybe he will, but I couldn’t imagine dealing with those management politics. No. You want to pay me $2 million, I’d think about. Because I lost a lot of money in that period of time …

Honestly, I’d like to hear what they’re doing. Are they going to have 30 more people around me? I’m not going to be there with 30 people. They’ll lose track of all of us, including me. I’m not going to tell them what to do. But what they should do is look at the numbers through the years. The numbers we had. The numbers that are what they are now. I would say, why don’t you bring back the four people 15 years ago who got it rolling at its very best? They will never ever do that. Too much ego there. But they should bring back me, Woody, two or three others, Tony Reali. That would bring back, I think, the greatest days of Around the Horn, when we had the highest ratings. 

I think it’s still about ratings. When I left that show, I think we were a 14–3 football team. Now they’re an 8–9 football team. Anybody who doesn’t look at numbers that way is wrong. You have to look at numbers the way we cover sports. You can’t tell me 8–9 is as good as 14–3. Bring back the 14–3. That’s what I would do.